Her 40-Year Journey from Animation to AI
My interview with TrashcanRoxanne
Roxanne Ducharme has been in the animation game longer than most. Beginning as a pencil & paper inbetweener in Montreal, her decades-spanning career has taken her to London, Paris, Tokyo and beyond. But perhaps the most surprising turn was when Roxanne pivoted to AI after working in conventional animation for nearly 40 years.
Under the name TrashcanRoxanne (a nickname given to her by a former boyfriend who noticed she was always game for gobbling up his leftovers), Roxanne has taken what she learned from animation and used it to create surreal videos and images in AI.
I’ve previously written about how the current state of text-to-video models aren’t production-ready, and how the training methods of said models are ethically questionable to say the least. But I felt like it was important to talk with someone in the burgeoning field of AI filmmaking, and I found her responses to those issues quite interesting. She is open about the shortcomings of the technology, but also open about the sense of liberation it gives her as a woman who has spent her career making a certain type of animation in a male-dominated field.
I spoke to Roxanne from her home in Panama; the following interview is lightly edited for length and clarity.
LIFE IN THE MACHINE: Thanks for taking the time to chat. I was really keen to talk with you because I’ve worked in animation for a while, and it feels like you had a similar traditional career in the industry. But now you’ve made this sudden switch to AI which is fascinating. You started in animation back in the mid-80s, right?
ROXANNE DUCHARME: 1985, that’s right.
LM: That was a notoriously slow time for animation. How would you compare that time to now which is also… not great?
ROX: Yeah, it’s true. There wasn’t much happening in Montreal, but I was able to find work in an animation studio doing a TV series co-production with Belgium and that’s where I learned how to inbetween. I studied animation at Concordia University for four years without ever learning how to inbetween. I don’t think I even heard the word inbetween. But I learned on my first job in 1985.
And then in 1987 I left to work in Japan to do lip assignments. They were doing a lot of TV series work for the United States at the time, and my job was to listen to the soundtrack and write on the exposure sheet which mouth to put for the Japanese animators, because they didn’t understand English. After that I went to work in London where there were a lot of small animation studios doing advertising. Lots of 2D animated breakfast cereal commercials. In the late 80s I worked in London on An American Tail II: Fievel Goes West, produced by Steven Speilberg, and an Asterix feature film in Paris. So, for me it was busy. Those times were the busiest of my career.
LM: Obviously all of that work was on paper but over the years you would have seen quite a change in technology. Looking back at that trajectory do you see AI as a natural next step, or something totally different?
ROX: I saw more than one shift in technology [over that time]. First there was digital, then there was 3D, and now it’s AI. It’s like another tool, but it can really transform the pipeline of animation.
As an example, a studio recently contacted me about a 2D series. About 10 years ago they had the financing to do it, then a few things happened, the pandemic happened, and it was never done. Now they want to take that 2D project and make it in 3D, possibly with the help of AI. So, they’re asking me to take the characters and backgrounds and transform them in 3D with AI. I see AI as a good way to experiment and make something quicker than the traditional way.
LM: That’s interesting. A lot of times people talk about this technology shutting things down and removing workers from the process. But what you’re saying is that in some ways it can open opportunities that wouldn’t have been done otherwise?
ROX: Yeah, exactly. And it might give work to people if they can manage to finance the project.
LM: Back to your career, after years of working in these conventional animation jobs, what made you decide to make that leap into AI?
ROX: Back when 3D arrived and transformed animation, I always regretted not learning it. I’m not sure why I didn’t – I probably didn’t feel like going back to school. But when AI arrived it was at this time when there was no work in animation and I thought, “Okay, this time I’m not going to miss the boat. I’m going to learn it.” And it was easier to learn, too. I didn’t have to go back to school, I just needed to spend time on the computer.
Once I tried it, I realized that I loved it. I got addicted. And now I wouldn’t even take a contract in regular 2D animation anymore.
LM: Oh wow! What about it speaks to you so much?
ROX: The coolest thing for me is that I’ve always had lots of ideas. I have a very vivid imagination. And now I can use my ideas and make little films on my own. I even make my own music. I create everything – I don’t need anybody else. It’s so liberating.
I feel like in the AI world, even though it’s still a “bro” community it doesn’t matter if you’re a woman or how old you are, but in traditional animation it does.
LM: Do you think that’s because AI is so new and it doesn’t have the same sorts of established norms that we have with conventional animation?
ROX: It might be partly that, but I also feel like [with AI] you’re judged just on the stuff you do. You put it out there on social media and that’s what people judge you on, not your age. Sometimes people have no idea who you are.
LM: Are there lessons from your time in animation that you apply to your current work in AI?
ROX: Oh yeah, a lot. Everything that has to do with film, cinematic language, camera moves, lighting especially. I’ve also worked as an art director in animation, so that helps me too.
LM: Do you think your process for making films with AI scales up for larger productions? I’ve played around with it a little bit and I find if I want to make one little change it can kind of spiral out of control. In a larger production how would you handle things like the dreaded client notes?
ROX: Right now I think it’s better for individuals, although it’s moving really rapidly. There’s more and more control, but it’s not to the point where you could make a full movie and be in control. But it will get there sooner than we think. For now, it works best for things like short films, music videos or advertising.
LM: Yeah, sometimes it feels like AI can do all these fantastic dream-like montages but if you needed to shoot a family around a dinner table in a mundane way the AI can’t do it.
ROX: Right now to have the continuity of the same background, different angles, that’s difficult. I think the best approach for a larger scale TV series or film would be a hybrid with some 3D or 2D mixing with the AI.
LM: Having worked in animation all these years, do you ever hear from your former colleagues who are angry about the kind of work you’re doing? There’s a lot of fear out there surrounding AI.
ROX: Yeah. A bit less now because I think they unfollowed me or blocked me. But I had a lot [of backlash] when I started. In the traditional animation world, a lot of them are against it. But I see more and more people who are curious, and some of them have contacted me in private to ask me where they should start to learn it.
It made me think maybe I should give workshops [on AI] only for animation people who already have a basic knowledge of cinematography and so on.
LM: A lot of the concerns that people have relate to the ways these models were trained – the scraping of copyrighted material. When you look at your own work, is that something you’re concerned about?
ROX: Personally, I try not to mention styles or names when I prompt because I want to do original stuff. But I know the way [gen AI] works when it creates things, it will never exactly reproduce any one image. You can’t say my image was taken from this image. That’s not the way it works. When people ask that question, there’s a video that I send people that explains it better than I could.
LM: I saw that you are going to be working with Pascal Blais on a new AI initiative. He’s another person who has a lot of experience in traditional animation. Can you talk a little bit about it?
ROX: I have been working with Pascal for a few months now as AI Creative Director, starting up the studio. We are focusing on advertising because that’s what he did with his previous studio, and he’s got all the contacts with different reps in Canada, United States, Mexico.
Pascal created a webinar to explain AI Visionaries - that’s the name of the studio – because there’s still a bit of worry about using AI surrounding copyright and lack of control. But [in the webinar] we explain that we’re a hybrid studio. He’s got people that do AI, like me, and he’s got people that do 2D animation, 3D, special effects. We can even shoot actors in front of a huge 180-degree LED screen that features AI video. So, the plan is to do hybrid for advertising contracts.
LM: Where do you see the future of AI going when it comes to animation and filmmaking?
ROX: It’s hard to say, but it’s definitely going to have a bigger place. I don’t think 2D and 3D will completely disappear, but I think they will incorporate AI into the pipeline, maybe to create images or storyboards. I don’t know. There’s so many things you can do with AI, and it’s going to keep improving. It’s not going anywhere.
LM: That’s all the questions I had for you. Is there anything else you want to add before we go?
ROX: I just wish there were more women [in AI]. There’s a few, but it’s mainly guys. I see way too many car chases, guns, explosions. Guy stuff. I wish there were more artists as well. I keep seeing a lot of AI work trying to mimic real life or traditional live-action films. I’d love to see more artistic approaches. AI has so much potential when artists really play with it as a creative tool.
LM: This has been fantastic. Thank you so much Roxanne.
ROX: Oh, you’re welcome. That was fun.
Thanks for taking the time to read my interview with Roxanne Ducharme. You can check out her work here.
I know there are strong feelings around AI, art, and animation. I just want to encourage everyone to lead with curiosity and kindness as we try and navigate this strange new world.
Seeya next time,
Matt Ferg.